This is my latest composition in the Rapture series - looking for comments and criticisms - but please make them specific, addressing particular points and scripture applications: I can do nothing with "I don't like what you said".  (Contact author via URLs at the bottom) 

Rapture #15 - answer to an objection against the Pre-Tribulation Rapture; which objection is derived from the phrase,

 "except those day shall be cut short, there shall no FLESH be saved"

The below article is a defense of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine

February 7, 2003

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The PRE-WRATH Rapture doctrine teaches that the "catching away" of the Saints from the earth that is predicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 happens sometime AFTER the Antichrist gains power in the world - so that the Saints "who are alive and remain" at the end of this age are subjected to organized persecutions that are instigated BY THE ANTICHRIST.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.   For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.   For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:   Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.   Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    I cannot help but comment here..... that there is not much "comfort" in thinking that we are headed for persecutions and executions under the Antichrist - while there is abundant comfort in anticipating a complete escape from the Tribulation Period. (Luke 21:36)

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    These are the texts where the "shortening of the days" is mentioned:

(Mat 24:20-22 KJV)  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: {21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. {22} And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

(Mark 13:18-20 KJV)  And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. {19} For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. {20} And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

    THE PRESUMPTION of the Pre-Wrath-Rapture advocates has always been that the above verses refer to a shortening of the amount of time that Christians shall have to endure the horrors of the what we generally call "The Tribulation".  Pre-wrath advocates (and the defenders of the old and now forgotten Mid-Trib scheme) say that "the elect" in this place means the Saints that are still alive on the earth when the Tribulation Period begins.  The "shortening of the days" they interpret to mean that Christians will have to endure "less days" of the Tribulation Period than the non-Christians.

 

    Now I wish to point out here, before I begin to parse the language in the texts above, that Post-Tribbers and Pre-Wrath advocates seem to be willing to take the slightest POSSIBLE hint of a problem with the Pre-Trib scheme as an unanswerable proof of their doctrine.  This represents to me that their arguments are mostly undergirded either by FEAR of the future, or by a cyncical view of God - and anything that can feed that fear or cynicism in any way they seem to regard as IRREFUTABLE PROOF of their doctrine. 

 

    BUT the texts DO NOT SAY anything about length of The Elect's endurance of those days - it speaks of what happens to "the days" - not of what happens to "the elect".

 

    The "days" could be "cut short or lessened" whether The Elect were on the earth or gone from the earth.  If Jesus had MEANT for this to indicate The Rapture, He used very odd language to say that. 

 

    Jesus does NOT say "Lest NO SAINTS be left alive for the Rapture, the Lord will take them out before The Tribulation kills them all"..... BUT THAT IS EXACTLY what the Pre-Wrath advocates want these texts to say.... isn't it? 

 

    So let me begin by pointing out what the above texts about "shortening the days" DO NOT SAY:

 

    They say NOTHING about any resurrections or Raptures.  Look again - check the context further if you wish. There is NO MENTION of any Raptures, resurrections, catching away, trumpets being blown, or voices from Heaven in connection to this "shortening of the days".

 

    They say NOTHING about "saving/rescuing" THE SAINTS.  All that is said to be the result of this "shortening" is that some FLESH shall be saved.  This "flesh" is saved for the elect's sake. These verses also do NOT say that 'the FLESH of the elect' is the FLESH that is saved.  What is "saved" (rescued; preserved) here is "some FLESH". 

 

    The first ERRANT PRESUMPTION of the Pre-Wrath position on this matter is that there can be no one called "the elect" left on the earth after the Rapture.  I assert that there will be after-Rapture conversions, and these are "the elect" that will be persecuted by The Antichrist.

 

    The FIRST (big) PROBLEM for the Pre-Wrath analysis of these texts is:

 

(1 Cor 15:51-53 KJV)  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. {53} For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

    SINCE we who are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord are immediately transformed into new and glorified bodies.... and it is those transformed bodies (and not the "old flesh") that are Raptured...... what can "saving some FLESH" have to do with the Rapture of the Saints?  How is God going to "SAVE THE FLESH" of the Saints by Rapturing them off the earth?  Does not "flesh" here mean "natural bodies", such as we and the beasts have in common on the earth?  Will God Rapture some crippled Saint out of a wheelchair into the heavens still crippled? Will the Raptured Saints (the "elect") arrive in the clouds to meet the Lord Jesus IN THE SAME (flesh) bodies they had BEFORE the Rapture?  (1 Cor 15:50 KJV)  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

    So... (answer this question!)... The days of the tribulation are cut short so that "whose or WHAT flesh" shall be saved?  The flesh of the Elect?  Is God going to "save the flesh" of The Elect at the Rapture?

 

    The NEXT PROBLEM for the Pre-Wrath position on these scriptures is derived from their own premise - for they say that Matthew 24:22 SAYS that Christians will be here for the days of persecution that precede "the Days of Wrath" - but that they WILL NOT BE HERE for the really horrible events like the poisoned seas or the hundred pound hail:   but that is NOT what those texts SAY.  They SAY: For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.   The days that are "shortened" or "cut short" are these days - NOT some previous days.    The language in the text implies that "some" FLESH (whatever is meant by that term) will NOT be destroyed by all these unprecedented calamities.  This does not agree with idea (advocated by the Pre-Wrath position) that Christians are spared ALL those events!  If such language indicates the Rapture, than the Christians have to endure (at least) SOME OF those events, but not all of them.   Please read the above texts again: "Those days" are those days of great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.   This does NOT sound like the gradual wind up to the ascendancy of the Antichrist - it sounds like FULL BLOWN TRIBULATION to me....... 

 

     THE NEXT PROBLEM for the Pre-Wrath position in these texts is in the specific reference to SABBATHS in the Matthew account.  What does a Jewish Sabbath have to do with Gentile Christians in other lands, who do not observe a Jewish Sabbath?   Almost every business and facility is open and operating on Saturday in the Gentile Christian lands..... how can a Jewish Sabbath impede "our flight"?  But CERTAINLY, within Israel, where nearly every gas station and business and public service is closed - a mass exodus from the city on a Sabbath day would be a real problem.  Make sense?

 

   Now we come to the critical term "shortened" - and the Pre-Wrath advocates say that this means that the length of the Tribulation Period will be "shortened" for the Saints, by Rapturing them off the earth BEFORE the really terrifying judgements begin.  But the Greek word here does not mean "lessened" - as if to remove part of a quantity so that there is less remaining.  The Greek word here is  kolobow  ; which word means to "cut off - to abridge; curtail; shorten". Even that word is a derivative of another word kolazw - which means to "lop, or chop off"; or "to curb; check; restrain". 

    When we say that "So and so was talking until he was "cut short", what we mean is, that he was interrupted in the midst of his speech - and I say that the word for "shortened" here means "ended suddenly and precipitously".   It does not man "less days" rather than " more days".  In other words, I say that this verse predicts the SUDDEN end of The Great Tribulation.  The horrors of The Great Tribulation will only build and build until SUDDENLY - they stop.  That is how I read and interpret Matthew 24:22 and the Synoptic verse in Luke.  THAT is the only explanation for these verses that comports with idea of "saving some FLESH".   It is not the souls of the Saints that are saved by this sudden ending, but what is saved by the sudden and unexpected curtailment of the Tribulation horrors is animal life (including people) on the earth. 

 

Matthew 24:22 from The New English Bible (1961)

If that time of troubles were not cut short, no living thing could survive: but for the sake of God's chosen it will be cut short.

 

Matthew 24:22 Darby Translation (1879)

and if those days had not been cut short, no flesh had been saved; but on account of the elect those days shall be cut short.

 

    The sense of the phrase is clear (to me) - that the except those days be somehow abridged, cut off, curtailed and suddenly stopped (not allowed to continue) that NO FLESH (men or even beasts) would be left alive on the earth. It reads the same in the KJV:

 

(Mat 24:22 KJV)  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

   

    FLESH does not = SAINTS.  But yet it must be presumed (that FLESH=SAINTS) in order to make Matthew 24:22 refer to the time of the Rapture.   The Pre-Wrath position MUST have "flesh=saints" and "saved=raptured".  That requires quite a stretch of the language.  Allow me to reword the verse so that it SAYS what the Pre-Wrath opinion wants this verse to say:

 

And except the Lord had raptured out the saints before the tribulation ran it's full course, there would be no living saints left to rapture, so, for the saint's sake, God has shortened the amount of the tribulation that the saints must live through.   Have I got that about right? 

 

    IT IS NOT the "saints" that will be saved by the shortening of the days, but some "flesh". Nowhere else does the Bible use the word "flesh" as a label for Saints. Characteristically, "the flesh" is used in the NT to refer to the lower, natural and unconverted nature of men. How is it that now, the The Saints are called "flesh"?   

 

    In other words, except those days (of the GREAT TRIBULATION) should be "cut off" (at the height of their ferocity), NO FLESH (men or animals, too?) would be "saved" (survive; endure) to enter the Millennial Age.  The benefit to The Saints is that "some FLESH" will be preserved, and that flesh will be the natural born men and beasts that survive The Tribulation to live on in the Millennium. 

 

    "If the storm did not stop, we would all have been killed" is the sense in which I read this text. Picture The Great Tribulation as a sudden terrible storm that blows over buildings and threatens to wear down and tear down everything beneath it until suddenly,  it JUST STOPS. 

 

    Contextually and lexicographically, the word "shortened" here means "ended precipitously and suddenly; curtailed; cut off in mid stream".  I am saying that the Great Tribulation ENDS SUDDENLY and precipitously. If it were to run it's natural course, so that it "winds down as it built up", there should NO FLESH (not souls) be saved. No animal or man would survive it.  In order that "some FLESH" should survive, The Great Tribulation suddenly ENDS, right when it's at it's peak.  

 

    Now particularly, the "human flesh" to be saved in this particular case seems to be "Jewish flesh" because of the Sabbath reference - which would confine the specific reference here to Israel and Jerusalem.  IF the Great Tribulation did not SUDDENLY STOP/END WHILE AT IT'S PEAK, no "flesh" of natural born Jews in the land would survive.  (this of course presumes as I do, that there are natural born men on the earth during The Millennium). 

 

    It does NOT say "lest no Saints be saved".

 

    It does NOT say, "Lest no SOULS be saved".

 

    It does NOT say, "Lest no one be Raptured".

 

    It says, "lest NO FLESH should be saved".

 

 

CONTEXT

Mark 13:14-20

 

14  But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15  And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16  And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17  But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18  And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19  For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
 20  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
  

    Sure does look like and sound like a specifically Jewish problem to me....... and (again), only Israeli Jews could possibly be at greater risk for such an event happening on the Sabbath.....

   

Matthew 24:15-22

 

15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16  Then
let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

    In both places, and in both cases, the warning appears to be specifically directed to the Jews who will be living in "Judaea" (Israel) at that time.

 

    These events happen AFTER "the abomination of desolation" is set up - and this has always been taken to announce the beginning of the worst parts of the Tribulation Period.  The days that are cut-short are the days of great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.   The Pre-Wrath notion that the "shortening" of the days refers to total escape from the latter, more horrific portions of the Tribulation cannot be sustained from these passages.  If The Saints are here for ANY of these things, then they are here for SOME of the great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

    SUMMARY

 

    These veres say NOTHING about any resurrections, raptures, trumpets blowing or voices of Christ or angels summoning anyone.

 

    These veres say NOTHING about "saving" THE SAINTS (personally) from any danger.

 

    These verses speak only of saving some FLESH -which means animal bodies; animal life (including human life).

 

    These verses seem to be specifically directed to people living in Israel - the ONLY people in the world that would be particularly inconvenienced by the need to flee on a Saturday Sabbath day are Israelites.  Only people living in Israel would need to be concerned about anything that takes place on their Sabbath Day.  The reference to winter also seems to geographically confine the specific place that is addressed in these passages - I spent most of my life in Southern Florida, and there is no winter there to speak of.

 

    IF then, it is correct that this shortening or "sudden ending" of The Tribulation is so that SOME FLESH (man and beast) will survive on the earth into the Millennium, we may ask, "To what benefit will this be for the resurrected and raptured Saints?" 

 

    WELL - that all depends on what you think the Millennium is; what it's like; who will be there what they do there..... but certainly, there would be nothing good about returning to an earth that is utterly devoid all animal life.  If everything living on the earth was destroyed, God would have to re-create animal life again from nothing, just as he did in The Beginning.  The Bible predicts a Millennial Earth with animals on it (and, natural born men). 

 

Isaiah 65:18-23

 

18  But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19  And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20  There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21  And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22  They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23  They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

 

(Isa 65:25 KJV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

 

    We see here described an earth, in which men ordinarily live longer than one hundred years, and yet, there is still death and there are still some sinners in the earth.   The only way that such a situation could exist, would be if natural born men continue on into the Millennium.  In order for natural born men to continue on into the Millennium, some have to survive all the way through The Tribulation - or else - God will have to re-create men from nothing again, and we would have to replay the original fall of man in the Garden of Eden in order for these natural born men to be sinners and subject to death.  Such a notion (the re-receation of men in a fallen state or a replay of the original temptation and fall) is preposterous; even ridiculous.  Therefore, it must be presumed that some natural born men survive the Tribulation and continue on, marrying and begetting children into the Millennial Age.

 

    FINALLY - it appears that the main premise of the Pre-Wrath opinion is that NO ONE CAN OR WILL BE CONVERTED AFTER THE RAPTURE. This presumption is absolutely necessary to their case.  The persecutions of Saints that are described in the Revelation (they say) are Saints that were already here when the Antichrist took power.  In fact, it appears (to me) that if it can be proven that there are AFTER-RAPTURE repentances and conversions, the entire Pre-Wrath argument falls apart, for it appears to be totally sustained on this one premiseThere ARE (obviously) Christians that are persecuted during at least the earlier parts of the Tribulation period - the question then is: Where did they come from? 

 

    I recently asked a Pre-Wrath advocate to produce some scripture to prove that no one could repent and be saved after the Rapture - his answer to me was TO challenge me to produce a scripture that says that they could!  WELL, I know of no text in the Book Of Revelation that reports particular conversions, but I think the onus is on the other side in this matter.  Since when, as long as men are alive, is there no possibility for any man to be saved?  

 

    I insist that the responsibility to PROVE that no one can repent and be converted after the Rapture lays with the Pre-Wrath crowd, and that it is more natural to presume that after the Rapture does happen, that some (maybe many) men and women will realize that their world and their lives in it are about to end, and they will then (and desperately) turn to Christ and cling to Him.  Many have been brought to sobriety and repentance through the sight or experience of tragedy.  There are some movies that have been made that picture the consternation of those who were "left behind"; the chief plot of the movies being their remorse, their repentance, their struggles to survive and their martrydom.   The scenes on the earth after the Rapture are unimaginable to me without the image of people who then repent and turn fully to Christ. 

 

(Rev 12:11 KJV)  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

     The entire Pre-Wrath argument appears to be based on the idea that no one can be converted after the Rapture. Therefore, they place the Rapture somewhere in the midst of the Tribulation, so that there will be Christians around for the Antichrist to persecute during the first months or years. The question is finally, whether those described above who die as martyrs under the Antichrist could be after Rapture converts, or are they all people who were saved BEFORE the Rapture?   I see no reason to suggest that no one can or will be saved after the Rapture.  I also believe that all the real Christians on the earth for any of the Tribulation will die, either from natural causes or as martyrs - so that no real Christians will enter The Millennium in natural bodies - but they will all be resurrected and glorified.  In other words, to be saved AFTER the Rapture is also a death sentence, for the Revelation gives no hint of any Saints that escape these persecutions and survive the Tribulation to enter the commencement of the Millennial Kingdom in their natural bodies. It may well be that many Saints will die of natural causes in the mercy of God, to grant them an escape from the horrors of these persecutions.  I think especially of child-converts in this respect.

 

    Jesus did say: (John 8:51 KJV)  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.   I BELIEVE THAT ALL CHRISTIANS ARE SPARED THE HORRORS OF DEATH.....  and so it shall be that even those who die by torture during The Tribulation will be supernaturally comforted out of this world; as was Stephen the Deacon, who while being bludgeoned to death with stones, was of sufficient calmness and presense of mind to forgive his tormenters.  (Acts 7:60 KJV)  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

    Lastly...... Luke 21:36 suggests that something more than being "the elect" is required to escape all in the Rapture:

 

(Luke 21:36 KJV)  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

    Now...whether this implies that ALL Christians will be found watching and praying so as to be accounted worthy - or whether it implies that some Christians will be "left behind" to die during the Tribulation I do not know... but this text does leave room for the idea that some Saints or professors who are not yet truly converted - but WILL BE - could be left behind.  These also, could be among the persecuted Saints that die as martyrs during The Tribulation.  AND THEN, either we must presume that ALL younger children on the earth were raptured (every one) - or that none among them would have gotten saved.  Whenever the Rapture does happen, there will be children of every age on the earth. I do believe that special grace and power will be supplied to those who need to endure this terrible time - so that in the end, The Tribulation Saints will NOT have really had it any harder in this life than the rest of us.

 

Psalm 35:27

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http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/index.html

 

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